Top Courses and More

[SteveHorn]

Brian! Bulls Eye is on my list to play in a tournament so it must have just made it as far as length. For a par 72 course the minimum yardage is 6350 yards. Most course's in PGA 2000 play at least 150 yards or more longer then what there yardage is listed as because of the dogleg factor in PGA 2000. I'm not a long hitter, Avg between 260 to 265 off the tee. If you want to update bullseye with a few new championship tee areas I say go for it.
Do you have any input on 3 to 5 course's in PGA 2000 that I should play in a tournament this upcoming season.

[BrianZ111]

Oh OK, I thought it was going to be 6,800+. I don't remember what it says in PGA 2000 but Bull's Eye is 6,622 on the card so I think I will stick with just the real tees for the updated version in PGA then. The updated version will have reworked contours for the greens to match the real course and possibly an updated texture set. It probably won't be done until late winter/early spring next year though as I've got a lot of other stuff going on. In that case, The Ridges, Peninsula State Park, and Wisconsin River could also qualify as they are around the 6,300 - 6,500 mark. I'd recommend The Ridges of the 3 for the best tournament challenge. It's probably the shortest of them but has narrow fairways, is tree lined and a lot of water hazards to get into trouble.

Anyway enough about me, as far as other courses, it’s been so long since I’ve played that I’m sure I’m missing the obvious choices but here are some courses I always liked that I remember that don't always get a lot of attention.

You mention Mill Creek as one of your favorites which is pretty cool to see. You may also want to check out The Designers Challenge @ CC Park. This was the original hole by hole contest courses and one of my favorites, particularly the front 9.

Blackwolf Run-River Course by Smak2000 – Herb Kohler’s first course before Whistling Straights, also designed by Pete Dye. Inland, wooded, on a river. Hosted the Women’s US Open twice. Decent reproduction, not over the top difficult like some of Smak2000’s others.

Muerill Golf Links by Yannick Trives is a fun course that I always thought was underrated. A bit shorter though so don’t know for sure if it makes your cut.

Cheyenne Country Club by Bryan Carrol / DanO is another course I liked that I didn’t think got enough attention.

Some older ones I liked although it’s been quite a while now so I don’t know if they still hold up: Tobacco Road GC by Rattlesnake Designs, TPC @ Chippewa by Chris Anderson, Turnbull Run by L.L. Allen.

Took a quick look and the real courses list and some obvious one’s I’m sure you’ve played but they weren’t on your list: National Golf Links of America - R.S. Barker, Pine Valley - Chris Clouser, English Turn by Dale Somerfelt, old site of the PGA tournament in New Orleans, Cypress Point Club by Joe Wells, used to part of the Pebble Beach Pro Am.

Hard to keep it to just 3-5.

[SteveHorn]

Brian! Thanks alot for your time and giving it some thought on which course's to play. I've played the Designers Challenge at C.C. Park several times and I know its an A lister, hard to believe it wasn't played in the past 4 seasons but I doubt I'll play it this season. I've played Blackwolf Run but it's been awhile I'll probably play it this season. Bullseye, Pennisula State Park, The Ridges and Wisconsin River I'd say I'll schedule 2 of those course's not sure which two. Muerill is to short but love Yannick Trives course's. I do have Cheyenne C.C. and will schedule it.
If I limited my yardage to a minimum of 6800 yards I'd eliminate way to many great course's that are tougher and longer then there yardage indicates.

[BrianZ111]

Yeah makes sense, I forgot just how much shorter the ball goes in this game compared to what we do today. Also I knew it only measured yardages in a straight line to the hole in the game but didn't know the total yardages were off that much too.

[sandwedge]

How about European Links and Johanne Golf Club v.2 by Stefan - both are great fun! Franklin Lakes is IMHO Steve Opfer's best course but probably not up to par with some of the gems you have already played. I would also suggest Tobacco Road if you want to get a look at what designers used to have to work with before all the libraries came out and how well they fared. Rattlesnake Designs knew how to get it done back then!

As to my comments on your list:
Crooked Run - underrated course by Bill Glacken that I really like - was glad to see you put it on your list.

Gunpowder Bay - wow, is this course fun to play - definitely one of Bryce's best designs

Carolindi Forest - my girl's all time favorite course and almost the only one they want to play. I think I know the layout by heart and I still struggle for some reason to make it happen there.

Arrowhead - whew, breathtaking and holds up still to this day - legendary course

So many great designers, every style imaginable and many fine works available - isn't the life of a PGA 2000 cybergolfer the greatest?! Yeah it is!

[stillgolfing]

How about European Links and Johanne Golf Club v.2 by Stefan - both are great fun! Franklin Lakes is IMHO Steve Opfer's best course but probably not up to par with some of the gems you have already played. I would also suggest Tobacco Road if you want to get a look at what designers used to have to work with before all the libraries came out and how well they fared. Rattlesnake Designs knew how to get it done back then!

As to my comments on your list:
Crooked Run - underrated course by Bill Glacken that I really like - was glad to see you put it on your list.

Gunpowder Bay - wow, is this course fun to play - definitely one of Bryce's best designs

Carolindi Forest - my girl's all time favorite course and almost the only one they want to play. I think I know the layout by heart and I still struggle for some reason to make it happen there.

Arrowhead - whew, breathtaking and holds up still to this day - legendary course

So many great designers, every style imaginable and many fine works available - isn't the life of a PGA 2000 cybergolfer the greatest?! Yeah it is!

Thanks sandwedge for recommending these courses. One thing I would be interested in knowing (I'm asking the moderators here ... I guess?) is, who decides what "Type/classification" a particular course is supposed to be? For instance Tobacco Road is listed as "desert like" (which is always of interest to me), but, as it turns out, it is obviously a "wetlands" course. This misnaming doesn't happen that often, and in some cases it can be an either /or. Yet sometimes the course classification is obviously just plain wrong.
Thanks, Dave

[SteveHorn]

Sandwedge! I've played European Links before but its been a long time, I remember liking it alot. Same with Johanne -V2 I will add them both to be played this season. Franklin Lakes by Steve Opfer I've never played but it is on my list so I will also add that course to my schedule. Steve Opfer is a very under rated designer love his course's. He may have been the best in the very early years of PGA 2000. I've only updated my course's list A through O, so far I'm unsure about Tobacco Road. It's not a course I had on disk in the past but I've added ALOT of course's this fall and I know that Rattlesnake Designs where good architects. Thanks for the Input.

Stillgolfing! I"m not sure who desides what type of course a course is listed as, probably Dar (Tincup). Were all human and make mistakes at times and many course's like you said are a bit of a mix. I remember a few years ago the topic came up for some reason and I mentioned how Dragon Ridge wasn't listed as a desert course and Dar said he would correct it. It may be up to Brian to do any corrections not sure.

[BrianZ111]

Yes, Dar is the one who does that. He maintains a spreadsheet with all the info about the courses and I update the actual webpages to reflect the spreadsheet whenever he lets me know there are changes.

[tincup]

It doesn't surprise me that some courses are mis-classified. Often, if not stated by the designer, I just call the type based on a first impression. It is really quite subjective and I am certainly not locked into anything. No doubt, some of the classifications are wrong, or borderline wrong.
Dar

[sandwedge]

so far I'm unsure about Tobacco Road. It's not a course I had on disk in the past

Yeah, I get that. Tobacco Road to me is a step back to what was before we got spoiled with all of the recent A listers. Think of recent designs by Brandt, Zager, Indy, Grayson, Polsdad, Caygle, Bryce, Duncan, Torben and yourself etc. No one was designing at that level back then. I guess I rate it higher than most folks would because I see the current period as the product of those earlier days of experimentation and figuring out the possibilities in the architect. As for the course itself, it has wide fairways but is tricky enough to catch you off guard if you don't pay attention - great for the fun factor. A little rough on the edges with a need for more smoothing and a duplication of the same tree over and over - kinda disappointing on the wow, this is beautiful factor. But I still think it is a solid design that paved the way for more advancement in planting and designing moving forward.

I agree about Steve Opfer being a great designer of the early period. He was definitely heralded as such and not overlooked on the forums at the 19th hole and at the Copyright Club. Most folks saw his work as a real natural approach to design and saw his courses as very believable creations.

I was thinking that if you like Stefan's designs you could also try International Links GC Black Course. I like the White Course more but the Black Course is definitely tougher and more suitable for a tournament or major. If you like his work and enjoy the ones I listed than this one deserves a look for future season replays. It is not as good as the ones I recommended earlier but it is a quality track and worthy of a tournament test. I play it in my personal season replay for that reason.

And if I mentioned anything in this post that you already knew - please forgive me. I know that you have been around for awhile and were here at a period I was absent so I might be just relating the obvious all over again. I am glad you are a part of this community - you add a lot to what we have here!